Meeting told Ty Pawb arts offer ‘not subsidised’ nor in deficit as building costs and car park ‘pull it down’

Wrexham Council’s Ty Pawb facility is running at a loss – however the arts offer is ‘very successful’ at grant applications and does not run a deficit – with the ‘building costs and car park’ ‘pulling down’ the overall budgets.

The detail emerged during an ‘urgent’ (but not really – more here) meeting of the Employment, Business and Investment Scrutiny Committee who were considering a requested Ty Pawb Performance report. It turned out the report the committee had requested did not contain all the answers they had wanted.

Cllr Paul Rogers started the questions querying the occupancy rates in the centre, and asked what officers were doing to encourage longer opening hours.

The meeting was told: “One of our biggest challenges is making sure that the traders are open and remain open throughout the whole day, and later into the evening.

“It is something we work very hard with, the issue we’ve got, and it’s the nature of market traders, is that they tend to be sole traders” with Sunday openings also planned.

Cllr Rogers also presented a question from Cllr Andy Williams noting the financial figures in the report contrasted to some ‘near 100% occupancy levels’, branding it ‘defying logic, and comes across as mismanagement’.

The officer told the meeting that the budget codes used could contribute to the less than clear financial picture, as costs are attributed to the building as a whole rather than specific areas – where revenue is noted in those areas individually. An action was taken forward to change budget codes, to allow better tracking of expenditure.

Carpark income and an increase in repair and maintenance costs were also referenced as a reason for high expenditure,  with the projections going forward described as being “a lot more favourable.”

Cllr Stella Matthews enquired who was responsible for the headline £111,000 deficit in the report, if it would be carried over or would result in a wider council cost.

The officer said that the sum was ‘contained within the Economy budget’ which encompasses the town centre, heritage and so on and therefore ‘we did not have a deficit overall as an Economy Department, so it does not carry forward’.

Cllr Matthews asked for clarity: “So that means it will be paid by the authority?” and was told “Yes” with a £252,000 deficit of ‘the previous market’ being used to contrast that figure ( a position that was historically challenged many times in the Peoples Market > Arts Hub debates).

Cllr Dana Davies then asked a large range of questions (who said she was expecting Cllr Paul Roberts to be presenting the report not Cllr Hugh Jones) which was then answered in bulk.

The first query starting with finances: “We’ve got a set expenditure of around £900,000 and we’ve got income that fluctuates around about £650,000. Our net expenditure is around £250,000 the report tells us.”

“If we focus on value for money for the public purse, what can we do to sweat the asset? What has been done to do that? How much more income can we get to negate that deficit?”

The officer appeared not to recognise the £250k figure and referred to a projected deficit of £100k, and noted occupancy rates of 85%, although it was pointed out the council was aiming for 100% with a waiting list.

The officer added: “Ty Pawb has really performed very well from an occupancy level and that is testament to the strength of the team and the offer that is there. We do need additional income coming through, not just on occupancy.

“We do need car parking to increase, we did say we will look at plans specifically for car parking. We know we’ve been impacted by the fact that there is free car parking in council car parks past 11am.

“Now from a town centre management perspective, there is the positivity of getting people into the town centre. But, obviously from a Ty Pawb perspective it has impacted on income.

“If that is to continue we may have to look at an alternative use of the car park.”

Cllr Hugh Jones added more detail on the carpark, which once was a money generating gift from one Wrexham Council department, but now appears to be a costly looming wider issue,  “Within report is the Arts Council has clearly demonstrated it has confidence in our future planning by giving us an additional £126,000 pounds in order to develop the top floor of the car park into a into a roof garden. So that indicates that the Arts Council has complete confidence in the work we are we are doing.”

Cllr Jeremy Kent said he supported retention of the ‘free after 11am’ wider council policy, but he often ended up paying to park in Ty Pawb as the other council carparks are full. He asked ‘what are the long term plans if that revenue does not come back?’

Cllr Hugh Jones replied: “As you can see from the figures the car parking was doing very nicely, the income was growing. Then we made a policy in order to genuinely help and support traders in the centre of Wrexham.

“Obviously, we definitely are going to have to make a decision, but I can’t see that decision changing in the immediate future.

“We are clearly going to have to look at other commercial opportunities. It’s also a question in that car park space, is there any opportunity of looking for a different use of some of that space? Because it is quite a massive space.

“But, then if you’re going to make changes you’re into capital expenditure as well. Also the point has been made that the type building it is isn’t particularly economical to operate in terms of any use of those old style of car parking spaces.”

Another officer gave more information on general revenues: “In terms of the original business plan, there is activity that has been more challenging of late, there was quite an income target for holding events, ticketed events, to raise profits and also for the shop, which we have now stopped – but will move to the Visitors Information Centre and it will have its own income target.

“So that has been a challenge because the events program has not been able to make the profit that it was targeted to make. Sponsorship was an area that we’ve never managed to really succeed at yet, but there is a plan trying to get some sponsorship for events, publicity, being able to advertise and things like that in Ty Pawb.

“So there’s a few other areas that we still need to work on that aren’t just about markets and car park.”

“In terms of external grant support I would say the arts team take absolutely every opportunity and are very successful with that set. Everything that is delivered for the arts program is 100% funded, and it’s not subsidised in any way or come in at a deficit. It’s some of the other areas of activity, like we’ve discussed around the building costs and the car park that sort of pull it down”

The officer concluded with a view back to the former People’s Market: “Overall, I think the position still is significantly better than the deficits we were experiencing prior to Ty Pawb.”

Cllr Davies also asked why the repairs and maintenance budget (R&M) had not been carried forward, while noting it was a new redevelopment of a building, “you wouldn’t expect high levels of repairs and maintenance in the first three to five years of all that investment into a building?”

The officer replied: “The South Arcade had a facelift when Ty Pawb opened. We had some traders that left in the last year during the covid restrictions, and we’ve had new traders going in, but the actual facilities required a lot of R&M to get them up to the specific specifications we need.

“The R&M cost we would not expect to continue again, going forward.”

“The fact that the building was predominantly not open, the heating was not on as it previously would have been, that obviously caused problems with leaks. So there are things that have all been addressed and having an open building should should answer that. ”

Cllr Davies was also critical of the report before councillors: “What I’m not seeing in this report that I would expect to see in any performance report is the forecasted expenditure year on year within that five year plan.

“Did we have two years blip due to Covid-19? Are we catching up? Are we in a different place now?”

Cllr Hugh Jones rejected the point, “What we were asked to produce is a report for the performance on 2020, and 2021, which is exactly what we’ve done. We weren’t asked to produce a report which has a financial plan for the next five years.

“We produce the reports that the committee asks for we can do no more than that. I hope we’ve done what committee have asked for.”

Cllr Davies asked “Do we need to look at staffing structure? We need to prove to the public that any money that council puts in this value for money.”

A restructure has taken place with an effective merge between town centre team, events, and Ty Pawb, with an officer observing: “I think if it was any leaner, we wouldn’t have any areas for developments for increased income, we would just cut ourselves so short, that that just wouldn’t be achievable. We’d be surviving as opposed to growing. ”

Cllr Andy Gallanders cited a recent members training session on climate change and carbon reduction and said Ty Pawb was top of the list of Wrexham Council buildings for carbon emissions and electric use, and fourth for gas.

Cllr Gallanders noted the ‘climate emergency’ declared back in 2019 locally and asked what would be done. The focus on car park capacity was also referenced, “Will increasing car park occupancy help with carbon?”

The meeting was told extra meters had been installed to discover exactly which parts of the building are using what energy, with the recently specced and built Gallery One being singled out as a big draw, and depending on the exhibition: “It does require certain atmospheric conditions to be maintained at all times” via a humidifier system.

“Work will take place later this year with a company to discover if any efficiencies can be found”.

Further work appears to be taking place on the car park to move to a motion based on / off system, compared to a timer that is in place currently – with it noted that could be quite complex due to the nature of the building.

Other high energy use areas include a server room, along with the food units. Offsetting usage could be explored by ‘planting trees on the roof garden’.

Cllr Gary Brown welcomed the range of answers, and queried footfall figures, and was given extra data of figures between April-June 2022 – with 101,000 visitors.

Cllr Hugh Jones noted, “When we were debating the establishment Ty Pawb people said, ‘you will never get 100,000 people going through that a year’ and now we’re set to get 400,000.”

Cllr Davies and Cllr Jeremy Kent asked about the long debated governance model, with it being mooted several times that the centre would be passed into a trust.

Cllr Jones gave a potted history of the debate, and what has happened, concluding: “It is something absolutely that I would expect and ask the Advisory Board to look at because that is still the decision of the executive board, that it was a responsibility given to them.

“So I would expect them to address that responsibility. I can assure you, because I didn’t cease previously and I won’t cease, to remind that responsibility.

A mini debate took place over the local promotion and awareness of what is on at Ty Pawb, with Cllr Jones highlighting the centre had been on ‘national television at least four or five times’ with the One Show also being live from there for the City of Culture announcement adding the team were doing a ‘fantastic job’ in raising the profile.

Cllr Gallanders was looking at the local promotion, citing Ty Pawb’s own website and Facebook page open in front of him pointing to tiny number of events being shown, “clearly, there’s a lot more going on” – requesting better promotion, especially this summer with a cost of living crisis meaning free events are even more needed.

The officer, and Lead Member, agreed, “In any situation, we can have the best events in the world, but we need to make sure people are aware of it.”

Cllr Dana Davies agreed with the promotional issue, praising wider awareness of Ty Pawb and new ‘community networks’ created during the City of Culture, but noting ‘people in the county’ want to know what is going on.

She said: “We have the networks already there but it is very much that local community network, and that includes local press as well, it will be nice to read what’s happening in the local press with regards to Ty Pawb”.

Cllr Robert Ian Williams pointed out his media consumption was more towards England than S4C, self identifying as a ‘cultured person’ he said he was all but totally unaware of Ty Pawb’s offer.

Cllr Williams said he knew of the historic move from the old Oriel to Ty Pawb, but the day to day operations were off his radar: “I would say to an awful lot of people, it’s still very much unheard of. I really do feel that there’s a terrible gap there and it needs to be reached.”

Cllr Williams also raised concerns over ‘running at a loss’, stating: “We are in a critical period in the country with a cost of living crisis and people are really, really experiencing hardship.

“How can we justify pouring more money in like this new Hanging Gardens of Babylon on the top car park? I think we should be standing back and looking at what we have got, and developing that.”

Cllr Jones firmly rejected that position in what was a number of direct exchanges with his fellow group member, saying he did not ‘accept nor agree that we should standstill’ giving details on how a rooftop garden would help offset carbon footprints, benefit mental health projects as well as cross over with several other schemes.

He said: “We are investing in programs and projects in the town centre, the city centre of Wrexham, in order to improve the economic viability of the area – that creates business opportunities and creates jobs.”

In a throwaway comment that crystallises the usually woeful scrutiny process in Wrexham the committee chair invited recommendations, ‘as we have been criticised for not making any’, rather than it being proactive engaged excitement and perhaps the whole point of the near two hour meeting.

It was in the end a bountiful conclusion to the meeting with a decent range of recommendations, including:

• A future performance report against a three year business plan and financial forecasts
• Update on Advisory Board action plan, which will include details on future delivery models
• Feedback sought from a range of stakeholders including traders
• A formal welcoming of the rooftop garden proposals from the Committee
• Welcoming extended openings and early evening opening at Ty Pawb
• Improve the promotion of Ty Pawb.

(Our other article on the business of this meeting can be found here:  Councillors examine Ty Pawb “as matter of urgency” as lead member says it never left his portfolio  )