FWarp
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Hi Transportuser, I have been down that road of voting for the opposition, employing tactical voting, and protest voting. Those parties do not see my vote as being against the status quo, but an endorsement of their policies. As for putting my own opinion forward, there is little point as I am the first to admit that my views are in the minority within Wales and would have no chance of getting traction for any political movement.
I see it time and again in Wales where people look to the state for answers for everything, when there is a problem it is the Governments fault, and when a solution is needed it must be the Government who fix the issue. In my opinion, the Government ARE the problem and the solution is to have much less of it – but in doing so the individual must provide more for themselves and accept responsibility. I’m not talking about things like healthcare, but as an example, aspects of education. For example, there was an old thread on this forum about the cutting of a road safety team (or something) by WCBC that educate youngsters on how to be safe on roads, one member said that it was shameful, and the council will be responsible if something happens to a child on the road – NO, parents are responsible, it is the parents PRIMARY responsibility to ensure the safety and well being of their child, not the states.
As I said, my view is not popular, as it forces people to take stock of themselves and take responsibility for things that may not go well in their life. So, unfortunately, I’m as unelectable as Jeremy Corbin :)
I think I am just becoming content with growing older and more grumpy! :)
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How then would you suggest to curtail the problem? or as it seems from some comments on here there is no problem :(
[/quote]And yet again you have misread what has been actually written.
I need to ask, are you my wife? As you are hearing (reading) something that was not said (written), and choosing to hear (read) what you THINK was said (written), despite numerous attempts at actually clarifying what was said (written) :)
No one has said there is not a problem, no one is condoning littering, no one wants to live in a sh1t tip! It has simply been stated that:
1) There are other ways of approaching the problem that would arguably get better results.
2) Fining people simply pisses people off, and there are potential consequences in doing so.
3) Enforcement officers will chose easy targets, and will have a different definition of litter than most.
4) This is not an attempt at rectifying the problem and is primarily about raising revenue.[quote quote=112976]I can’t believe that people on here are condoning dropping litter, I certainly don’t believe in a nanny state but why do people feel they have the right to chuck rubbish anywhere, even cigarette butts should not be just flicked on the floor as a lot do in my opinion.
I was driving back home the other day and the car in front of me opened his/her sunroof and threw three or four packet of crisps out of it ! Is that alright to do !!!!!!!!!!! ??
A long overdue initiative if you ask me to try and curb this disease I will call it ! :)
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WOW, yet again people are missing the point of what is being said! No one is condoning fly-tipping, people throwing large volumes of litter around, or even people dropping litter! I haven’t read anyone say “F@ck the law, I’ll throw rubbish where I want!”. I was simply saying that there are better ways to achieve the desired outcome (if the desired outcome is to have a cleaner town and not to raise revenue) which does not piss people off. I generally find people are considerate and approachable when spoken to in a nice way, when you start demanding people to do things and fining them, it is a different story!What we/I am saying is, once you give a private company the mandate to fine people they go after the easy targets, as has already been said about the pensioner STUBBING out a cigarette on the floor (not throwing away the cigarette butt, but STUBBING it out) and being fined HALF her state pension for the week!!!!!!!!! Do you condone that? 70 year olds being fined half their pension? Is that a proportional and measured response? Is that the cost of cleaning up the ash, that would still get on the floor if they stubbed it out on the top of the bins provided? How many 6ft, 21 year old drunks will they go after? Or will they chose the easy targets?
Are you happy for people to be fined for feeding the ducks? Feeding pigeons? Throwing confetti outside the Parish Church at a wedding (which produces far more ‘litter’ than a single piece of litter)? Or do you have different classifications of what constitutes ‘litter’? I just hope your definition matches what the person issuing the fines definition is should you ever be in that situation.
Hi Carol, I previous thought as you, that change can be made at the ballot box – but history has taught me a lesson in Welsh politics – that until the generation die out who vote out of habit instead of reasoned thought, nothing will change. Again and again Labour continue to gain ‘power’ irrespective of how they perform at a national, regional, or local level. They treat the North of Wales with upper contempt, and we still return them to office!
I once believed I could support the Conservatives, but they have not delivered at a national level and have put ideology instead of the good of the nation. People like George Osbourne, who are more interested in laying political traps for opponents at the expense of long term financial stability, forced me to this state of apathy.
Whilst you believe that apathy is foolhardy, I believe that it is a pathway to change in itself, and by not engaging in ‘their’ games of deception starves them of the legitimacy they require to ‘rule’ – by doing so creates a vacuum that WILL, one day, be filled by someone worthy of my vote.
I speak here only of my apathy for the Welsh Assembly, at a local level votes count, at the EU referendum every vote counts, at a national level please see above :) (until the ‘vote labour till I die generation’…dies).
Before I get abuse from Labour voters, I am not totally against the idea of voting Labour (nationally) – they just haven’t given me any reason to do so. The Blair years of ‘Tory lite’ confused people enough to vote for them in 3 elections, but what did you get? Neither traditional Tory nor Labour policies, everyone lost :) I would also argue that those years were equally divisive in the shaping of our nation as Labour voters state of the Thatcher years – instead of having a class war, we had an ideology war, where anyone with differing opinions than the Labour defined mainstream are classed as racist, sexist etc. and this was used to stifle free speech and debate to the detriment of all.
Anyway, the sidelines are the place to be…you see how ridiculous it all is :)
When people talk about ‘decent places to eat’, I get the impression that they are excluding multiples and ethnic food establishments, and really mean there is a lack of quality Italian/French upmarket establishments. I can understand when people disregard pubs that sell food, but within Wrexham town centre I can think of 3 places to eat on Eagles Meadow (F&B’s, Nando’s, and Pizza Express), 2 Indians (Anise and the one opposite the Nag’s Head), 2 Chinese (one opposite the Wynstay, and the one below the old Woolworths store), and the Lemon Tree – 8 dedicated places to eat within the town centre off the top of my head, whether they are ‘decent’ depends upon personal taste.
If you believe there is a lack of ‘decent places’ to eat in the town right now, at this exact moment, you can argue that opinion. There has, however, been several attempts over the last decade or so to establish more upmarket places to eat, all of which I believe are now closed – the Thai in the old Elephant and Castle was fantastic, as were at least two attempts at French/Italians in the Overton arcade, there was an upmarket Indian that use to be next to Chequers (Red Rose I think), and one in the old Dodmans shoe shop, and finally I remember the one under Bonkers night club (it was upmarket if I paid £18 for a steak back in 1999!!!).
The real problem here is how the town is configured, or perceived to be configured, around a large concentration of pubs down the High Street. There are far less pubs/clubs in the town now than there were 12-15 years ago, but a perception still exists that the town centre is a ‘no go area’ for families (who are the main source of potential customers) after a certain time at night.
Add to this the pull factor of Chester, and other places in the surrounding area (for example the Pant, and numerous places through Rossett, Marford, Pulford, Alford, Churton, Holt, etc.) and there is simply not enough ‘pull factor’ to bring people in to the town centre when there is so much choice with 20 minutes drive.
I did consider that Zinger, however you know that the media and politicians will spin it as X% turnout….Labour are the largest party….back to business as usual…move along nothing to see here!
It might be because I’m old an cynical, but this is what I feel the major parties offer on all the main issues:
I admit that there are slight differences with who polies are targeted against, but in my opinion, you know you’re going to get f@cked, it’s to what degree it hurts!
This is a very sad state of affairs, however I am one of the guilty that did not vote this year – for the first time in my life! I have now come to the conclusion that the only way to change things is to starve the people ‘in power’ of legitimacy by not voting – if it gets down to below 20% voter turn out across Wales for the Welsh ASSembly then surely they cannot continue as a viable institution!
[quote quote=112841]I’m certainly for fixed penalties and cannot agree that any illegal activity is acceptable, including parking where’s not allowed or even ‘minor’ speeding. The roads will be safer for children, walkers and cyclists and cleaner too if FWarp stays away.
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Now I’ve got my serious point out of the way, time for a ‘tongue in cheek’ reply – giving you fair warning not to get offended! Again, ‘tongue in cheek’ warning for all you SJW out there!
The roads will be safer for :
*Children – if you let your teenagers play on the bypass when I accidently drift over 70 miles an hour, whilst keeping up with the flow of traffic, I consider it a public service if a mow them down and remove your offspring from the gene pool for being so stupid to be playing on a main road!
*Cyclists – they DESERVE to be mowed down, my only gripe is that I don’t have a larger 4×4 to get more in one hit! I can’t be the only one who gets pissed off by seeing a cyclist on the road….NEXT to the cycle path!!! Only to get more pissed off when they start cycling side by side!!!!!
*Walkers – if you walk on the road you deserve what you get….with the exception of Rhos, no-one knows what a pavement is up there!:)
[quote quote=112841]I’m certainly for fixed penalties and cannot agree that any illegal activity is acceptable, including parking where’s not allowed or even ‘minor’ speeding. The roads will be safer for children, walkers and cyclists and cleaner too if FWarp stays away.
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Hi Waveyd, I apologise if you have misunderstood my point here – it must have been when the text got too small to read whilst you scrambled for the moral high ground :)My point here is 3 fold:
1) A society wide problem, where there is a worrying trend of public organisation imposing fines as a FIRST and ONLY resort, when there are other avenues open to them in order to encourage people to change behaviour (which is allegedly their aim). I am not against fines per say, however it is always how the laws is implemented. What grates me is the move to make so much ‘illegal’ and attach a fixed penalty against it (such as being fined for taking your children on holiday during term time).As previously stated, the issue, mostly, is how the law is applied. A quick google will show you how quick ‘enforcement officers’ are to hand out fines, some examples below:
*£50 fine for feeding pigeons in Bolton – so it depends upon what your definition of rubbish is.
*£75 fine for feeding the ducks.
*Fine for putting up missing cat poster
The list goes on and on, further investigations will reveal that most of these are rescinded upon appeal, just showing that the ‘enforcement officers’ are in the wrong – but only if you appeal! With the specific example of feeding the ducks/pigeons, it all depends upon what you, as an individual, defines as litter against what the ‘authority’ deems as litter.2) My second point was about who actually holds the power in this situation, in the long run anyway. Sure, the individual may be fined but there are two unintended consequences:
* The amount of money fined is no longer available for the individual to procure local goods and services. This stops the ‘velocity’ of money through the local economy, take for example the old lady who was fined £75, half her weekly state pension, for stubbing her cigarette out on the floor in Eagles Meadow (private land that the council don’t even clean against the wishes of the owners!!!) – that money could have been used to go to the hair dressers to get a blue rinse :), which then paid for the hair dresser to get a takeaway and taxi home, both the taxi driver and the takeaway owner then decide to go to the local pub and buy a pint of Wrexham larger etc. Instead, the fine goes to a company based outside the county , sure some wages will go to local people, but after the company take their profit and government take their slice of the wages in tax.
* The consumer may change their habits to avoid being penalised in the future – as it is ultimately their choice where they go to spend their money.
The irony in your comment, if FWarp stays away, is exactly what happened! I was in the wrong, I admit that, but a simple note on the car windscreen saying “Please do not park here, you could get a £75 fine if caught again” would have had the same affect (probably better) – it was my first, and only, car parking offence to date in over 10 years of driving. What really pissed me off about the situation, was that I was only 5 minutes getting the wrapping paper, and the ticket was issued 2 minutes after I left the car. I believe the ‘enforcement officer’ even seen me get out of the car, again, he could have just said “no parking there mate, and I would have moved. At that time my wife and I were not flush with cash but made every effort to shop local, using the butchers and fish mongers in the market, got all our Christmas presents from the town, and that was £75 I couldn’t afford to give away.
Fast forward 5 years and my wage has tripled, my wife’s doubled, now flush with cash – but no shop keeper in Wrexham gets it! That is my point, I, the consumer, have the power, and the actions of Wrexham Council have contributed to me changing my habit – just not in the way they hoped!3) I believe, that this is another contributing factor to making Wrexham a more unattractive place to shop, in the same way that the clampers in Wrexham a couple of years ago did. On top of the crap, overcrowded roads, high car parking charges, police speed cameras etc. Now before you get on your high horse about speeding I ask you to think about North Wales police for a moment, where they position the speed cameras and how they enforce a zero tolerance approach when your speedometer can quite easily have a +/- tolerance of 10%! We have all seen them on Cefn Road, on the hill, where it is quite easy to drift over 30 miles an hour, add that to them previously putting a speed camera in a horse box and things don’t seem on the level! We all know that they are doing it to plug funding shortfalls – but that is a different argument entirely! And then contrast that zero tolerance against how they treat more serious crime, like the setting alight of cars in the area, or when your car is broken in to (a friend had his car broken into, and it took the police 14 hours to turn up, then another 3 days for them to come and dust for prints – and they said “can’t dust for prints now, has been too long).
[quote quote=112796]Is the idea to reduce litter, or increase revenue? Where I work currently there is a significant amount of litter and commercial waste which is clearly visible yet the council contractors are only interested in cigarette butts.
If the idea is to reduce litter then the policy is failing as litter is not improving.In addition innocent members of the public are being accused of littering, one of my customers was accused of throwing a cigarette butt on the floor by an enforcer. When he told the litter police that he had put said stub in the bin the enforcer stated that he had not seen the lid lifted. This worries me because these enforcers are assuming litter has been dropped rather than seeing the offence. Fortunately for my customer there were numerous witnesses and enforcer went away.
[/quote]This is obviously yet another attempt to extract money from the general public by a local ‘authority’, in a worrying trend of public organisations who now believe they have the right to fine you for any and all misdemeanours (all stick, no carrot). WCBC have instructed Kingdom Enforcement Services to have a ‘zero tolerance’ approach to issue fines because they know the fines are ‘Disproportionate & Immoral’, and want to absolve themselves of criticism by using a private company as a shield when the public complain. Quite frankly, they didn’t have the balls to tackle the problem themselves, and wanted another cash cow.
We now have overzealous parking attendants, the new ‘litter police’, and North Wales Police who are itching to fine you the moment you inadvertently drift over the speed limit (which if we are all honest, everyone has done at some point)!
In this instance though, the power does not sit with WCBC, or Kingdom Enforcement Services, but with the consumer! The very canny management of Eagles Meadow have seen the problem here, if you fine a customer it gives them a negative experience, and they will NOT come back – irrespective if they are at fault!
And before some of you start bleating on saying things like “if they didn’t drop the litter there wouldn’t be a problem”, I say to you:
1) Don’t moan when all the shops are shut in the town as enough customers get pissed off and spend their hard earned money elsewhere.
2) As Chris has already stated, Kingdom Enforcement Services have already been too keen to try and issue fines!
3) We already pay for our streets to be kept clean by the HUGE council tax we pay!Once that money goes to WCBC and Kingdom Enforcement Services, it enters into a black hole (outside of the local economy), and there is no ‘velocity’ on the money to stimulate the local economy.
This is yet another example of making Wrexham an unattractive place to shop – on top of the crap gridlocked roads, constant road works, high car parking charges, and overzealous parking attendants.
And just to get this out there, I haven’t been fined for a littering offence :) I always keep my litter until I find a bin, but I also have young children, and know that they sometimes drop things that blow away.
I will, however, admit that I was fined £75 for parking in the loading bay by the peoples market, 3 days before Christmas (while buying some wrapping paper) about 5 years ago. WCBC said that their policy was designed to ‘change peoples behaviour’ – and they were right, it worked, I changed my behaviour! I haven’t spent a penny in Wrexham Town Centre on any Christmas shopping since! And I barely go into town more than once or twice a year – it’s Broughton, Cheshire Oakes, and Chester for me now!
Who really loses out? The local independents, and if enough people do the same as me, WCBC through lost rates when businesses fold, or chose not to open in Wrexham!
Rant over….for now!
