No clarity on new Mayor as Guildhall witnesses terrible debate between councillors

Wrexham’s Full Council meeting was the worst we have witnessed last night, with a huge split between the Administration and opposition groups over who should be the next Mayor – and how the person will be selected.

The Full Council was due to consider Cllr Paul Rogers nomination as Mayor however, as the meeting opened, it was made known that he was withdrawing from the process. A statement was given to Wrexham.com, and councillors were told the papers before them were updated to reflect there was only one piece of business on the agenda item – to vote on Deputy Mayor going to Cllr Blackmore.

In what was going to become common over the next couple of hours, points of order were exchanged picking through the correct processes – first to discover if the removal of the nomination was an amendment or just an edit – it was the latter and thus no vote.

The Constitution Working Group should be a cross party group of consensus to avoid public disputes that could bring civic roles into disrepute, however it has failed in that goal.

Opposition groups Labour and Plaid Cymru pulled out of the Working Group in February, making claims it was being used by the Administration to get a desired name.

Those allegations were repeated and expanded upon in what was a heated debate direct between councillors, across the chamber, complete with juvenile heckles. Accusations of bullying, personal attacks and targeting of individual councillors were also made – with the Mayor Cllr Brian Cameron having to step in to specially depersonalise debates.

The Administration v Opposition Groups war had several side battles, but the main contention was the argument over the Working Group itself. The Opposition firm in their point it was a broken and abused process, and appear reluctant to re-engage. The Administration called on the Legal Officer – who was present at the Working Group meetings – to confirm that the process was legal and not improper.

The Opposition put forward proposals that would have seen Cllr Stella Matthews become Mayor, and Cllr Krista Childs the Deputy Mayor. That was wrapped up in a single vote that also included bringing a set of standards policies into the whole mayoral selection process. That vote fell, and thus all the proposals were not taken forward.

A vote was also taken on Deputy Mayor nomination of Cllr Blackmore, which passed.

After the meeting all groups appeared to feel victorious and vindicated, with the tit for tat continuing – gripes around Cllr Wynn’s “kangeroo court” comments, unhappiness over the Mayor appearing to vote against the Deputy Mayor nomination, calls for Cllr Davies to leave the meeting yet Cllr Blackmore voting on her own nomination all being subject of the post-match points scoring.

Despite the best part of two hours of full bore politics Wrexham still does not have a Mayor in waiting, which is required for the Annual Meeting. The issue will go back behind closed doors to the Constitution Working Group, who makes up that groups is not yet known nor if the outcome will provoke a repeat of last night at the Annual Meeting.

If the conduct and manner of debate in the public eye is reflected behind closed doors, it is hard to see where the consensus will be found.

You can view a quick set of clips from some of the debate assembled by Wrexham.com below, or view the full webcast of the meeting via the council’s streaming service here.

Our live tweets as we observed from the sidelines are below for further detail on what was said in the extraordinary meeting…

In the Guildhall ahead of the Full Council, that has the topic of future Mayor on the agenda. Watch live / agendas here: https://t.co/IBR7eIfVT3 pic.twitter.com/6JLARhtLfi

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

JUST IN as meeting gets underway – Paul Rogers withdraws from Mayoral process, "I have the utmost respect for the Mayoralty and the position this holds and this is the reason for my withdrawal from the selection process" More: https://t.co/V2vMtfgM3t

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Council Leader queries the vote counts in meetings, Mayor points to Officers who conduct counts. Mayor doesn't seem convinced on previous voting figures 👀

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Chair of Constitution Working Group confirms this, and points to it going back to the Group to get a new nomination. Therefore looks like just the Deputy Mayor to be debated / voted today. Cllr Dana Davies trying to get a Point of Order in. https://t.co/XuNVDHaQjx

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Point of Order heard – Cllr Dana Davies says she’s heard an amendment and therefore should be considered as such, interrupted by Point of Order from Council Leader to ask if it is a real Point of Order.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Legal Officer tells the Full Council ‘it is a modification of what is in the written report’, so not an amendment. Council Leader asks to confirm as no moving and seconding it will not open a debate. Legal Officer confirms.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Another Point of Order from Cllr Dana Davies…that appears to disappear. Now on to a debate on the report itself – effectively on nomination of the Deputy Mayor. Cllr Davies now talking about issues with the Constitution Working Group as we have previously reported.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Legal Officer advises councillors on the Constitution Working Group, saying that the group voted to allow a longer period for nominations and the actions was ‘within the remit’ as no formal deadlines.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Carrie Harper speaks on same topic, explaining as previously reported why Plaid Cymru left the Constitution Working Group. Says two groups won’t take part in that process, and therefore mayoralty could be seen as a political gift due to make up of the group.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Legal Officer says Constitution Working Group is still constituted and exists, with sufficient numbers to run.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Bryan Apsley nominates Cllr Stella Matthews for Mayor and Cllr Krista Childs for Deputy Mayor. Legal Officer advises to use the Constitution Working Group and this is unusual procedure.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Dana Davies declares interest as one nominated by Cllr Apsley is a member of her family, notes past current – and intriguingly *future* – mayors ‘vote for themselves’. Asks for modification make Constitution Working Group have no Executive Board members.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Davies asks for a standards of behaviour and behaviour in public life policies brought in to part of the mayoral nomination process in the Constitution Working Group – linking that directly to the current debate and recent nominations. Pause as Cllr Davies sends an email.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr David A Bithell fills the dead air with an observation on ‘assumptions’ that Constitution Working Group has acted improperly – asks Legal Officer to clarify that is not the case. Legal Officer confirms legally all is well with the Group.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Mayor adjourns meeting. Council Leader wants to speak, Mayor declines. Meeting adjourned for 6 minutes.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Webcast off and meeting adjourned – chamber empties – Plaid Cymru group in a huddle with Labour Group Leader joining them for a chat pic.twitter.com/nzYa4BWYbd

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Meet technically back underway – just Labour and Plaid groups in – someone jokes (!) “call a vote now” as administration absent pic.twitter.com/C2x0m4zZZv

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Legal Officer now runs through amendments put forward, and advises councillors to put issues over standards policies back to the Constitution Working Group. Also effectively advises re-run of nominations in that Group, rather than in the chamber today.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Davies says the opposition have ‘no confidence’ in the Constitution Working Group and asks how the public can have confidence in that process either. Indicates opposition won’t engage without ‘reform’ of the group, adds Full Council should be venue on nominations.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Council Leader asks for ‘consistency’ as says Cllr Dana Davies left the Constitution Working Group ‘as her mother’ was the nomination – he asks for Cllr Davies to leave the meeting. Mayor clearly unhappy 'this is getting personal'.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Legal Officer suggests a debate on each amendment to make it easier to follow, and at each item a personal and prejudicial interest could be declared at that point.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Stella Matthews asks for points of clarity, adds when she is in the chamber she isn’t a family member of another councillor – “I am councillor Stella Matthews in my own right, and I ask other councillors to respect that”

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Dana Davies points out she has already declared a personal interest (relationship to another councillor) – says she is ‘annoyed’ being ‘challenged on her declarations of interest in public meetings’ adds, ‘you have to ask is that intimidation or bullying?'

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Chief Exec Ian Bancroft reiterates the Legal Officers advice, to take it all to the Constitution Working Group, and nudges those who made amendments to go down that route instead. Notes it is fine to discuss things right now though.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Apsley ‘willingly’ accepts the amendment from Cllr Dana Davies over standards of behaviour policy and *adds* it to his amendment. Doesn’t appear to want to boot it back to the Constitution Working Group.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Marc Jones asks whats the difference between a Full Council with all members, and Constitution Working Group with all members. Points out only difference is one is behind closed doors and wants debate and vote now.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Great work from councillors on this to ensure "the dignity of the Office of Mayor and of the Council generally would be impaired by any public disagreement" some councillors seem keen to see how members operate in private – are we getting an insight right now? Farce / carnage.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Hugh Jones says this is a ‘sad situation’ and has not come across this in several decades, adds he is was ‘concerned’ to see claims that the process has been ‘inappropriate’ and points to the guidance from the Legal Officer he follows and therefore his integrity is intact.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Beverley Parry-Jones asks Cllr Dana Davies if she will apologise for comments that the Constitution Working Group has 'acted inappropriately'. Mayor asks for that to be dealt with outside Full Council.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr David A Bithell rejects allegations that there has been undue influence from Executive Board on the Constitution Working Group – says ‘it is not this Administration that has brought the council into disrepute, it is the opposition’.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

This is a mess.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Dana Davies very angry cites ‘personal attacks’ as she ‘dared to question the process of this council’. Adds “I have never ever treated members or officers like I have been treated this evening. This needs to stop. There is a pattern here.”

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Mayor agrees, “It is getting out of hand”. https://t.co/OBmPOZv5XH

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Strong stuff from the Mayor to councillors says “I want to cut all the personalities out of this. I know it has got heated. I treat everyone with fairness and dignity. I will act at all times on legal advice I receive.” Some firm guidance on how to act to members.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Phil Wynn says he is ‘personally offended’ by some comments tonight as he is a member of the Constitution Working Group, says the ‘opposition are throwing mud around to garner favour for the nominations they have moved’ says opposition ‘are happy to run a kangaroo court’.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Frustrated Mayor tells off councillors again and again “I am fed up”. Point of Order from Cllr Dana Davies who says Cllr Phil Wynn’s comments were directly bringing chamber into disrepute. Cllr Wynn says he aimed the comment at the opposition not the chamber itself.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Frustrated Mayor tells off councillors again and again “I am fed up”. Point of Order from Cllr Dana Davies who says Cllr Phil Wynn’s comments were directly bringing chamber into disrepute. Cllr Wynn says he aimed the comment at the opposition not the chamber itself.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Council Leader offers ‘an olive branch’ says ‘Labour Plaid we welcome you back with open arms’ to the Constitution Working Group. Mayor cuts speech short as not on the amendment. Cllr Morris moves to go to a vote. Will be a recorded vote. Progress!

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Finally a vote – One amendment with three parts so one recorded vote coming up on Cllr Matthews / Childs as Mayor and Deputy, should Exec Members be on Constitution Working Group and if standards of behaviour should be as part of Mayoral process.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Amendment falls – basically a split Labour&PlaidCymru v the Administration, bit like the debate tonight. (Vote: 24 v 29 – Ronnie Prince abstained) Also perhaps explains keenness for votes to be counted right earlier. https://t.co/02P2ord25J

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Hour and twenty mins we move to what was the only item of business in theory – Cllr Blackmore as Deputy Mayor. It moves promptly to a recorded vote.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

…or not, Cllr King wants to speak but now a debate on if a debate is allowed or if there was a move to the vote. Legal Officer reruns what was said, and a debate is allowed on the recommendation of Cllr Blackmore as Deputy Mayor. https://t.co/0BOumzRUbV

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

This, again. https://t.co/HiY3FLtQMj

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Cllr Wedlake says “The process may have been followed, but it is clear the process was changed to allow a different outcome and go for more nominations” points out thats different from the Constitution Working Group being able to do it, saying he wants to speak on that topic.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Council Leader is unhappy, “We have feelings. We are under attack here” as he has issue of ‘bulling’ being referred to.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Mayor also unhappy – says he is 'fed up' and wants 'everyone around the table' to sort it out, says “everybody is to blame here”.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

We remember when “One Council” was a buzzword in the Guildhall. Huge splits tonight, appears quite a few councillors personally upset by what has been said.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Vote for Cllr Blackmore to go forward to the AGM to become Deputy Mayor. Vote 23 v 29 – split much like last time, along the same lines.

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023

Mayoral agenda items wrap up – entrenched positions and lots of very unhappy councillors. Looks like who will be Mayor will get sorted out behind closed doors, if it was this bad in public, what on earth will happen in private?!

— Wrexham.com (@wrexham) March 15, 2023