“Squawking seagulls” critics of Tŷ Pawb urged to ‘make positive contribution’

Councillors probed the performance and plans of Tŷ Pawb yesterday evening in what turned out to be a mixed bag of praise and criticism.

Members of the council’s employment, business and investment scrutiny committee met yesterday to discuss the success and failures of Tŷ Pawb’s first year in operation.

It comes after calls from the committee in December for a full twelve month update after a “wobble” over the lack of rent collected and contracts signed.

More recently a planned audit – which we’re told was requested by a council officer – found there was need to “improve the effectiveness of financial controls in respect of cash income, to reduce the potential risk of fraud.”

Speaking to the committee, Cllr Hugh Jones, deputy leader of Wrexham Council introduced the report by noting it is a finance and performance report, and wanted focus as well ‘on the big picture’ and ‘where we have come from’ as well as just the numbers.”

He added that the former Peoples Market was ‘undoubtedly failing’ and Oriel was ‘limited’ in offer and location, saying both have now been transformed into a viable market and arts hub in the context of a ‘declining High Street’.

Cllr Jones said: “It is really important we look at what Tŷ Pawb has achieved, it has raised the profile of Wrexham in the arts world hugely.

“It is also important to look at people and the areas of engagement from social perspective. It is important to see the huge success Tŷ Pawb has had with social interactions, not just Wrexham but a broader cross section of the community.”

“It has provided an opportunity for start up businesses. Most of them are sole traders and they have found the opportunity to develop their skills and talents to provide an excellent range of services.

“Tŷ Pawb has achieved a profile far greater than I believed. It is a credit to the management team and staff that run it.

“Yes it is true that there have been and are some issues that we need to address, but these are not issues that will stop Tŷ Pawb from being a success.

“Most of the issues are operational. We have identified them and we are in a position to address them.

“It is a very big success story for Wrexham.”

As part of the meeting councillors were presented with the new business plan for Tŷ Pawb – which replaces the document created by Fourth Street consultants back in 2015. (You can read our long-look at the new document here).

Despite reassurances by Cllr Hugh Jones and officers that the Fourth Street plan would be adhered, just 12 months later the plan has been scrapped and replaced.

As Wrexham.com reported earlier this week, the new plan features less exhibitions during the year, revised opening times, a probable increase in car parking and a move towards hosting more external events.

Cllr John Prichard spoke first and echoed the comments of Cllr Hugh Jones, saying ‘there is something for everyone’ and said the Peoples Market car park would have been ‘boarded up’ if the transformation of the building had not taken place.

Cllr Marc Jones noted he was in the Audit Committee, and pointed out those issues were passed to this committee. Cllr Jones prefaced his questions with warm words, and warned about the dangers of looking at arts ‘through the bottom line’, adding ‘you cant measure one transformational moment’ against 10,000 people who ‘wander through to catch a bus’.

He went on: “I am very aware, visiting eating and drinking there, we have all experienced the place when it has been very busy and also very quiet.

“It has to try and find its feet. You crawl before you walk, and it is important to see this as a progression.”

He continued onto question one proposal to increase the cost of the all day parking at the multi-storey car park from £2.50 to £3 – which is in line with other council car parks such as Waterworld.

He said: “Car parking is a central issue to funding, it is a volatile subject. If under pressure the council said we are going to make it free, how would that impact on Tŷ Pawb projections, if they were left wanting to charge £3 a day? It concerns me so much of the funding is based off a volatile and emotive subject.”

Cllr Marc Jones also questioned if any future free parking initiatives that Wrexham Council offer would have an impact on the revenue taken by Tŷ Pawb, noting the matching upwards of pricing.

Rebeccah Lowry, regeneration manager at Wrexham Council, said they do not “envisage the car parking in terms of blanket free parking being taken forward”, adding “We are working off 85-90% occupancy. The general feedback is £3 is an appropriate rate.”

Cllr Jones posed a series a questions on whether the long running and highly publicised issues surrounding contracts and whether all the owed rent had been collected.

Last year concerns were raised after it was revealed that the local authority had not collected a single penny in rent within its first five months of opening.

At the time reassurances that although “no rent has yet been collected, as noted in the response to the FOI, the billing process is underway and the payment is due – no income will be lost due to this process”

Ms Lowry said: “Since the well publicised events in September, no new trader will take up occupancy without a legal agreement put in place.

“In terms of those prior to that, the majority have gone beyond the six month licence agreement and there are lease arrangements now in place.

“All rent has been invoiced and payments are being made in accordance with the arrangements in place. Any payments not made will be followed up with the council arrangements.”

It was also noted that of the money invoiced over the past 12 months, there is still around £15,000 outstanding.

Cllr Marc Jones went on to explain two concerns: “The bar, and underperforming bar, and the shop in the same way.”

Cllr Hugh Jones offered corrections to some figures cited by Cllr Marc Jones, however that did not hold much sway.

Cllr Marc Jones noted: “It is not profit, it is turnover, and would guess it is making a loss if you take out staffing and outlay. Does that mean we are not selling the right things? “

“The bar should generate a lot of income if you are putting on a lot of events.”

Ms Lowry explained: “In terms of the bar and shop income, we are setting them up more as independent profit and loss accounts so we can understand the true costs of those.

“We have set up the bar to test the opportunity, and we have seen it has become increasingly successful. The six month trading shows a steady increase of that income, we are setting next years targets to include staffing costs and the costs of the unit. We expect that to show reasonable surplus.

Cllr Jones interjected noting that the five year plan going forward: “In 2023/24 we are looking at £44k sales, under £1k a week that is tiny. If that is a five year programme seeing a rise, that is not a viable business frankly. If something has changed, it is not reflected. Can you explain?”

Ms Lowry replied: “That is based on the prediction on the events proposed going forward, the generation around the early evening economy is being taken forward.”

With the new plan being described as a ‘living document’ the new trading figures will mean the future projections will be adjusted, and the current bar figures are ‘conservative figures’.

One theme from several councillors was around how certain the Arts Council Wales funding was, as it is a low six figure sum making up a chunk of revenue.

Cllr Marc Jones enquired, “Have the Welsh Arts Council agreed future funding, as it is built into that, is it guaranteed? Do we have to tick extra boxes or are we fairly safe?”

Ms Lowry explained, “Arts Council Wales we are currently lottery funding from them, it is a year on year arrangement. They do have a review of their revenue funding clients. Again we are working with them to move forward with an application.

“You are right there is no guarantee year on year we will get that. We get strong support from them. They want Tŷ Pawb to be a success. They are showing every sign to support us going forward.”

Later in the meeting Creative Director Jo Marsh noted that a recent corporate document from the Arts Council Wales had a picture of the centre on the front, and that the local plans ‘align’ with the Arts Council Wales.

Cllr Nigel Williams spoke of his experiences of Tŷ Pawb saying it has a lot of potential, but asked for more information on the review of opening hours. He also asked how accurate are the footfall figures.

Ms Lowry told the meeting: “Opening hours will be explored.

“We refer in the business plan to potential Sunday opening and its viability going forward, and resources into developing the early evening economy.

“That is something we want to take forward this year. We will review it regularly.

“Footfall is important intelligence, it is fair to say up to February it is low accuracy as it was a manual count by staff. From putting in footfall counters there is an average of 30,000 a month and there is a margin of error built in. We do know to some extent where they go in the building, as we have a counter on the gallery.

“It is fair to say dwell time will only be as long as there is something to capture someone, to keep people in there. The footfall counter is at the entrance of the north arcade, if you go to the carpark only you wont be counted.”

Cllr Kevin Hughes was impressed by the footfall figures, saying they made the centre ‘more favourable to the people of Wrexham’.

Cllr Marc Jones was not so easily won over, probing further, “The 30,000 counted, is that 15,000 going in and 15,000 going out?”

In a rare bit of humour of what was a quite dry meeting, Cllr Hugh Jones quipped: “We hope they all eventually go out!”

The centre’s operations manager then gave a quick technically explanation of a ‘dual beam system’ that knows if you are heading one way or the other, and it was 30,000 in total.

Cllr Dana Davies pointed out she had ‘a number of questions’, and kicked off by asking what the Plan B was if Arts Council Wales funding did not come through and if that meant there would be any impact on council budgets.

Ms Lowry explained the Arts Council Wales funding was for programming, so there would not be a budget impact to the wider council, as the offer would be reduced, and in effect there would be no impact as the expenditure would not be incurred.

Cllr Davies wanted the overall service charges broken down better, with a view of making it easier for any alternative model of running the centre to access the figures. In reply she was told that was possible and it would be done.

It was explained some charges were for the whole building, and the trader specific area was just 16% of that.

Cllr Davies enquired if the rent figure was realistic as it was based off what had been invoiced rather than collected, and was told there was only around £15k outstanding.

Cllr Davies then moved to the business plan, picking up elements raised in Audit noting, “There was concerns around project management, financial controls, and assets register.”

“What have you put in place ready for a second Audit visit?”

Finance Officer Mark Owen replied saying it will be followed up with Audit getting a response later in the year. When that internal audit review is complete a green or green amber rating is expected to be presented there.

Mr Owen went on to explain how officers were working in the centre ‘ensuring controls and enhancements’ are taking place.

Cllr Davies then moved on to ‘challenges’ in the business plan, one of which being about the pricing for those wanting to hire rooms or space: “Are we confident we have found that price point? Is there room for manoeuvre in that?”

Mr Lowry replied with an answer that appeared to suggest the early pricing models scared off people keen to use the centre: “In terms of venue hire charges, there were assumptions and predictions from Fourth Street plan, some were priced outside what people would pay. We saw that early on.”

With other local venues as a benchmark it was felt ‘The current pricing policy is desirable’ with ‘a lot of take up’. That in itself then posed the reverse question on if the pricing was too low, “You could say they are too low, but that will be reviewed year on year.

In term of take up and demand it is pitched right. That has given us some confidence.”

Cllr Davies listed other issues with legal, finance and negative press coverage and asked, “Can you give me an idea on what doing to turn challenges to positives?”

In a brief reply the meeting was told ‘some events did not work well’ due to timings and lack of buy-in from traders and work in that area will be done to improve them.

Although ‘negative press’ was not answered specifically, the related answer pulled in ‘marketing and comms’ with ‘work on positive news stories’ to take place, and to involve traders in those.

Cllr Davies noted the marketing budget increase, media and was unhappy with the Tŷ Pawb website, suggesting Glyndwr or Coleg Cambria students ‘have a blast with it’ to get it up to scratch. In terms of the website it would appear that there have been some last minute polishing done ahead of today’s meeting, with new trader photos now available compared to long unchanged pages on there.

Moving on she asked if the Advisory Board published minutes and was told “No, not at the moment”.

Derek Jones, the Chair of the Advisory Board, expanded further and entered into a long explanation to the work of the Board.

“It is important to remember we are advisory not management, we have no authority or decision making powers. The way I run it, we listen to the team, they present a report that is circulated before the meeting.”

The reports contain details on recent highlights, challenges, new opportunities and issues that need dealing with.

“We pick out the key issues, challenge them on the issues, and our role is to make suggestions and guide them. It is up to the team to take them away, it is up to them if they take the guidance. I can share, they do.”

Mr Jones voiced his frustration as he was a self confessed ‘stickler for standards and discipline’ at missing three out of four times to get minutes out correctly, noting he wants them out in the week following a meeting not three or four weeks later.

It was explained that guests are invited to the Board sessions, with a recent visit from Destination Manager Joe Bickerton given praise. One stat from that meeting was that 127 coach trips came to Wrexham last year, and that moving the drop off point to Tŷ Pawb ‘would be fantastic’ for the centre that could then serve ‘afternoon teas’, but also is seen as doing town a favour as it would stop buses going the wrong way up High Street.

Future Board members were floated, with representatives from Glyndwr University, Avow and hopefully someone from Coleg Cambria. One gap was specifically noted, with someone with proper retail experience highly desired.

It was also recognised that the Board ‘lacks someone commercial’, and he was keen to keep asking ‘how can we be more commercial?’

Issues of the building design itself have been recognised by Mr Jones, who highlighted two areas of challenge: “Firstly was the visibility to the galleries. The galleries are not visible, they are behind a cage. How can we make the galleries more accessible?

“It is the same with the toilets, they are behind a cage, people do not know where they are.”

In a pleasantly put ping back to detractors, Mr Jones spoke of ‘fiery darts’ that come towards Tŷ Pawb, noting some are like ‘squawking seagulls’ in that they ‘squawk a lot, crap on your food, and walk away’. Keeping things positive Mr Jones encouraged: “I would like the seagulls to make a strong contribution” and “not just shout from the sidelines”.

Wrapping up by bringing thing back from the pier to the point, he said he was keen to see a Board meeting synopsis circulated and made public rather than ‘pointless minutes’, with the planned documents to include what topics were discussed and what recommendations were made.

Cllr Davies was pleased with the response, joking: “It is good for us to know what you are working on.

“We can support with that, as we understand Hugh is there on the Board as the council representative, and we can chew Hugh’s ear.”

Cllr Hugh Jones did not look overly interested in having his ear chewed.

Cllr Davies moved on to ask about the job before the Advisory Board, that is to delve into possible models aside from the centre being council run, and put forward recommendations on which is the best way forward, “With regards to the business plan forecast for five years, do you see that being to help develop alternative delivery model?”

Mr Jones said: “Short answer, it will help us. We have had the topic about business models, but we have not got enough information across the team to discuss that.

“We would create a small project team, officers, Board members to put some ideas on the table on how it could work.

With Bluecoats in Liverpool, a new market in Manchester and Mackie Mayor in Manchester all cited as possible fact-finding destinations for models he added, “It is certainly on the agenda, towards the end of this year we will think more clearly about that and see what models we can come up with.”

Cllr Marc Jones picked up on some details mentioned, noting the moving of a coach stop to redirect 127 coaches was an example of ‘silo mentality’ noting his concerns on the impact of that on the Butchers Market and the town centre.

Cllr Marc Jones agreed on the ‘cage’ design: “It is not just me that can’t find exhibitions!”

“It bothers me someone somewhere signed that off and hid the main assets behind closed doors.

“It is a concern moving forward that you as a Board at some stage will move to some kind of trust or body.

“Who is going to advise you to not make a fundamental mistake like that? It is very important decisions to make, who is advising on setup?”

Mr Jones said there were no ‘magic wands’ and the building itself could not be reconfigured, ‘we have to work with what we have got’ along with a budget of ‘almost zero’.

Cllr Hugh Jones says he had ‘challenged’ the design, adding: “I would say it is the design not a mistake, it was done due to security due to the high end exhibitions, and control over the access. It was not a mistake but designed that way.”

Cllr Pritchard asked about ongoing maintenance budgets, and if any snagging or repairs had been required.

The operations manager told the meeting there were some small issues and an ongoing snagging list was being fixed by the contractor who was obliged to do remedial works.

In an unusual turn the meeting then was presented with a range of questions from an anonymous member of the public via the Chair of the meeting.

Several questions had been covered directly or indirectly by councillors already, with one asking how the council’s own cleaning company ended up being the procured cleaners for its own centre.

Finance Officer Mark Owen explained that the council did go out to tender for cleaning the facility, and that was won by private company. However during the award process the company dropped out due to TUPE arrangements required, and then an ‘arrangement’ was made through negotiation for the work to be carried out in-house.

Members of the committee agreed to recommend to the executive board that Tŷ Pawb earmarks any reserve money so that any underspend is reinvested into the facility, with the recommendation that the decision to stand for two years.

They also agreed that the business plan includes key points from the Welsh Audit Office examination of arts and culture in Tŷ Pawb and that officers work with the Wrexham Music Cooperative to positively engage with the facility (more soon on that).

It was also noted that thanks be placed on record to all those involved in the project, and for the assurances given to the committee and acknowledgement of progress made.