Markets Consultation ?

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  • #113117

    wrexview
    Participant

    The last thing Wrexham needs is for there to be any doubt about the importance of the Markets to the town. They are our unique selling point and still survive despite lack of investment by the Council. All businesses in the town feed off each other, competition is good. Time for unambiguous statements from the Council , Town Centre Forum and Business Groups that they support all those who trade in town , that is the only way to prosper !

    #113151

    Alunh
    Participant

    The problem on this whole matter at the moment is that if you raise the idea of being supportive of the principle of supporting Wrexham Markets, it is assumed that you are making an overt (or coded) attack upon the Arts Hub concept. Ergo, there is not a hint of that in this positive input.

    You are quite right Wrexview that there is a need for various Business groups and the Council to fully commit Wrexham to being supportive of the Markets (though as I have argued elsewhere, it is more problematic for the Forum to do this).

    Additionally, we really do need to go back to the Manchester Met Report and look at what this says about towns that have good Markets. They add foot-flow to the town. Their document strongly argues for Markets but, specifically, for well thought through Markets that make coherent sense. At present, ours do not.

    We are in the excellent position now of being able to knit together the pieces. We have an Arts Hub coming with considerable Investment attached. We have a Council which declares itself to be aspirational about Markets (with the finances to follow). We have other funding streams available via things like VVP. The obvious thing is for the Council to now put its Aspiration where its wallet is and get behind a much more ambitious approach to the Markets perhaps pushing for some brand new Market build (as in the case of MANY other towns) or some ambitious reconfiguration of some sort of existing premises (as in the case of say T J Hughes). I am siding with Councillor Pritchard on this one and he has categorically argued that we ought to be positive about such moves (particularly where the Reports tie in with the claimed ambitions).

    #113164

    R T
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=113151]The problem on this whole matter at the moment is that if you raise the idea of being supportive of the principle of supporting Wrexham Markets, it is assumed that you are making an overt (or coded) attack upon the Arts Hub concept. Ergo, there is not a hint of that in this positive input.
    [/quote]

    The meeting referenced is past that point really as it looks at the future of the markets in terms of the General and Butchers, and the People’s separately in terms of maintenance etc between now til the point the conversion process is completed.

    Offering support (or criticism) for one or both strands of that is entirely aside from the Arts Hub.

    Meeting link http://moderngov.wrexham.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=3304&LLL=undefined – item 5 with 3 PDF’s for anyone who wants a nosey.

    The Market’s Strategic Asset Management Plan is the bigger one and worth a look : http://moderngov.wrexham.gov.uk/documents/s5203/Appendix.pdf?LLL=undefined

    #113207

    Alunh
    Participant

    I’m actually trying to take this matter a step beyond what the Council are (or are not) saying about the Markets question Rob. The difficulty that an individual like myself (who opposed the Hub) will face is a perception one…..that is, that somehow I am trying to revisit an old dead argument.

    I’m not. The Arts Hub is coming and let’s hope it works.

    What I am trying to develop is a fresh argument, one that is based in what Wrexview seems to be trying to get at (?).

    There seems to be an assumption that just because the Arts Hub is coming and the Peoples Market element will be incorporated and that the other 2 Markets will have some money thrown at them that this is all good. I disagree. WCBC have themselves in the Report you cite explained/argued how important Markets are for middle order towns like Wrexham and how they need reinvigorating. What they then go on to develop is a very conservative vision of the future, one where the Markets will actually be less significant an offer in Wrexham to the one that was available in 2005. Why so? That actually goes against the approach outlined by the Manchester Met and against the approach taken by Bury, Altrincham and others. If Markets Matter, why aren’t the Council looking at bigger and better premises, located more logically than the Peoples Market and thinking about reconfiguration of the whole (as other towns have done). In brief, to comply with the spirit of their advisors, Manchester Met, a far more aspirational vision than the one currently proposed is needed

    #113256

    FWarp
    Participant

    The council have no love for the markets, and I would guess (and this is only my opinion) that the people at the top look down on Wrexham being a ‘market town’ and want the town to be seen as a ‘cosmopolitan area’. This itself is now an outdated idea as the ‘in thing’ is for a town to be more quaint, to offer something different, an experience – now Wrexham is an ‘experience’, but that is a different post :).

    Like everything else, the ‘management and running’ of the markets, at some point, will be outsourced which will fit in the wider context of outsourcing services. I believe that the council (and by the council, I mean people actually in charge i.e. the senior management) have no stomach (or more likely inclination) to sort out problems themselves, and are moving at a lightening pace to outsource EVERYTHING, in an effort to get costs ‘off book’! In several years time, when all these services are creaking (due to companies ‘managing’ the resource having to overleverage themselves to make service delivery partially viable) the services will be passed back to the control of the council to be either:
    1) Sacrificed as ‘not economically viable’ (for services they can justify getting rid of). This may well be the fate of the markets if they do not continue to be the ‘golden goose’ it has been in the past.
    2) Have huge volumes of money thrown at the problem (for services they cannot justify getting rid of i.e. social service related services).

    To clarify, I will not blame the companies who will need to overleverage the service (to run the service at a cost less than the council) – but the council, as they will want to continue to keep percentage of revenue (read markets here!), extract a large ‘owners fee’, or in the case of services that will need funding, simply underfund the service (similar to how local authorities are squeezing care homes). Cake and eat it stuff.

    Now, there are many of you who say “great, let the people of with the expertise run the service, let the market stall holders run the market”, I agree – but the council will not pass over the service to the stall holders, and will still extract money from the markets!

    What really makes me mad is WCBC will be paying PWC a large percentage of any ‘savings’ made for simply telling WCBC to outsource management/running of everything. Anyone could have done that!!!!! Ironically apart from WCBC ‘transformation experts’ – specifically the Chief Executive, Dr Helen Paterson (annual remuneration of £109,000 to £125,000), and Executive Director, Lee Robinson (can’t find how much he’s on, but as the Chief Exec’s number two :) must not be on much less) – I know, bad pun.

    Now, this is not a personal attack, I do not know, or dislike either of them – if fact, Dr Paterson seems like a very nice person when I have seen her speak publically – my issue is that they are two very highly paid individuals, who both claim to be self confessed ‘transformation experts’, and have had to rely on PWC to teach them to suck eggs. Don’t take my word for it, have a look yourself:
    Dr Helen Paterson
    Lee Robinson – all transformation experience.

    #113328

    Alunh
    Participant

    Have to agree with you on much of this FWarp

    The evidence is pretty clear and one only has to look at the perverse chasing of City status over time as an example. This Wizard of Oz style piece of sublime lack of self confidence reveals much about those who have seen being a City as a silver bullet for ailments.

    The Manchester Met, of course, may have helped educate those who would transform because, as you have mentioned the buzz words these days are not what they were in the early 1990s. In the age of the Internet, towns need to base themselves on being different to their neighbours and the Internet, providing an Experience, retaining and promoting heritage, fostering the unique and local businesses, ensuring that businesses buy into being customer savvy and customer centred.

    Markets and Independent shops can do this for a town but they need encouraging and they need to work well. There is much to commend the Markets document that the Council have prepared but it needs to far more ambitious

    #113343

    TheSpectre
    Participant

    I would like to know if now being an Executive Director with I assume more responsibility and pressure this guy has the time to get the job done with regards to the ‘vision’ for wrexham or will it just become a ‘paper pushers’ position.

    #113348

    CarolThomas
    Participant

    At least now the managment team in the Council can say on their CV they know how to give a vastly disproportionate contract to consultants instead of doing the work themselves.

    #113669

    Peterthewatcher
    Participant

    Looks like the Council Internal Audit has now confirmed some of the issues about misinformation provided by Council Members and officers about levels of occupancy in the Markets. The following is a section from the Auditors report going to Audit Scrutiny next week

    Page 63 http://moderngov.wrexham.gov.uk/documents/g3232/Public%20reports%20pack%2026th-May-2016%2016.00%20Audit%20Committee.pdf?T=10&LLL=undefined
    R2 015
    The main weaknesses identified were:
    a) Incomplete records – of stalls and their occupancy, and key supporting documentation was sometimes lacking.
    b) Inadequate controls over casual stallholders and the amount of time that they remain ‘casual’
    c) Weak control over cash income for the outdoor markets (although no evidence of any irregularities was found)
    A Follow-up audit (2015/712) found that these weaknesses had been addressed.

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