Councilor Pay

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  • #66897

    wxm
    Participant

    @benjaminm 12139 wrote:

    … I await with bated breath for you to explain to all readers of these forums, as to how you seem to be able to arrive at two diametrically opposed opinions within the space of 24 hours and as to who you advocate should undertake the scrutiny role.

    This thread / forum is a debate. Constitutions have a legislature who makes policy (laws), and a body of people who implement them. The current model is unaffordable, and according to ongoing debate is ineffective. It is not just the fact that a duty of care exists in society to sort this out, but while this continues, the community is not getting the best value for money nor the best quality of life.

    #66885

    BenjaminM
    Participant

    Wxm, you quote me in your last post, as if you were about to address the questions posed in my submission.
    Once again, you have singularly failed to do so and gone off on yet another irrelevant tangent.
    I ask again:-
    1. Where (in your opinion) does the conflict of interest lie? Councillors or Officers?
    2. How you arrive at the conclusion that there should be a decrease in the number of Officers and yet, at the same time infer that there there needs to be another tier within the system to undertake a scrutiny role.
    3. And finally, how can both your totally contradictory statement have credence?

    In the interests of clarity, a non prevaricating response would be appreciated.

    #66878
    Alunh
    Alunh
    Participant

    @wxm 12080 wrote:

    Having followed the debate on here for a year, the case should be that either officers are appointed to do the work, or councillors are appointed to do the work? The role of councillors in other organisations, large or small, would normally be a quarterly, or maybe monthly, oversight meeting. Challenging the day to day people running the organisation to make sure they stay to policy and budget. We do not need, and we cannot afford, to pay twice for managing the County? It comes down to how many people are doing what, and is the community getting best value for money, and the best future affordable?

    Quite agree with this. You appear to be suggesting what merely goes on in any Company around Britain, many employing far more people than Wrexham Council. This appears to be the Texas approach to governance and does start to take much of the cost out of running an authority. Of course, you would have to get the dead hand of the Unions out of local government in Wales because they do make it difficult to remove the deadwood in an authority. I certainly can’t see why the Council appoint a top professional on good wages and then proceed to micro-manage his or her work. and the team that they manage.

    To repeat, however, there would have to be a Football Club culture created in respect of employment for this to progress where results were evaluated by the politicos.

    #66879
    Alunh
    Alunh
    Participant

    @benjaminm 12148 wrote:

    Wxm, you quote me in your last post, as if you were about to address the questions posed in my submission.
    Once again, you have singularly failed to do so and gone off on yet another irrelevant tangent.
    I ask again:-
    1. Where (in your opinion) does the conflict of interest lie? Councillors or Officers?
    2. How you arrive at the conclusion that there should be a decrease in the number of Officers and yet, at the same time infer that there there needs to be another tier within the system to undertake a scrutiny role.
    3. And finally, how can both your totally contradictory statement have credence?

    In the interests of clarity, a non prevaricating response would be appreciated.

    I’ve read Wrexham’s point several times Benjamin. It seems crystal clear. The owner of the metaphorical garage employs 3 mechanics and then proceeds to fix the car himself. He then charges the customer for his labour and that of the mechanics as well. Ultimately this is what is happening because each time that the tax payer pays a Councillor AND a Council employee to perform the same tasks it all mounts up

    #66891

    jimbow
    Participant

    In my opinion if the Job vacancies of Leader Β£48000k,Deputy Leader Β£35000k,Executive Board Officers Β£29000k were to be advertised,the present incumbents of those positions in WCBC would not get on to the short list.With those sort of salaries being up for grabs,I would think that there were more suitable applicants with better qualifications and expertise.

    #66886

    BenjaminM
    Participant

    I look forward with alacrity to your posts Alun, not because I consider you to be infallible, more really to see which patronising phrase or sentence you come up with – usually directed towards me.
    Your reference to the Texas model when used in relation to the ‘model’ (?) proposed by Wxm, is quite frankly, erroneous. (Yes, I can Google too)!
    Indeed, the analogy of the garage owner in relation to Councils and Council employees is bordering on being fatuous.
    Irrespective of the assistance you are attempting to afford, the fact remains that the questions I posed have not been answered.
    Although the post in question is ‘crystal clear’ to you, I find it less so. Perhaps that has something to do with my inferior cerebral capabilities. Mind you, it would be strange if were we all gifted, wouldn’t it?

    #66903

    Ferret
    Participant

    @alunh 12152 wrote:

    I’ve read Wrexham’s point several times Benjamin. It seems crystal clear. The owner of the metaphorical garage employs 3 mechanics and then proceeds to fix the car himself. He then charges the customer for his labour and that of the mechanics as well. Ultimately this is what is happening because each time that the tax payer pays a Councillor AND a Council employee to perform the same tasks it all mounts up

    But if he employs the mechanics and the mechanics do the work doesn’t he charge for their labour and something for himself as well? Otherwise how does he make a living?

    We probably need the workers for the skills / capacity AND the councillors for the democracy bit. At the top you could question whether you need working Councillors AND directors. Apart from that, regarding the employees doesn’t it boil down to “how many”; and regarding cllrs isn’t the question “how much”. To which the answers are usually – “a lot fewer” and “a lot less”!

    #66880
    Alunh
    Alunh
    Participant

    @ferret 12157 wrote:

    But if he employs the mechanics and the mechanics do the work doesn’t he charge for their labour and something for himself as well? Otherwise how does he make a living?

    We probably need the workers for the skills / capacity AND the councillors for the democracy bit. At the top you could question whether you need working Councillors AND directors. Apart from that, regarding the employees doesn’t it boil down to “how many”; and regarding cllrs isn’t the question “how much”. To which the answers are usually – “a lot fewer” and “a lot less”!

    I actually agree with what you say and indeed part of what Benjamin says. There is a balancing act. In the Garage analogy, I was merely talking about labour charges not any additional price that may be factored in for the management as well. In the public sector there appears to be a lack of clarity about who is actually doing what and where lines of responsibility start and end. I certainly think that we have to pay for the democratic process to function but we have to be careful not to merely load ourselves with double cost for one function. Whether this is the case in Wrexham or not, I am not competent to judge.

    #66881
    Alunh
    Alunh
    Participant

    @benjaminm 12155 wrote:

    I look forward with alacrity to your posts Alun, not because I consider you to be infallible, more really to see which patronising phrase or sentence you come up with – usually directed towards me.
    Your reference to the Texas model when used in relation to the ‘model’ (?) proposed by Wxm, is quite frankly, erroneous. (Yes, I can Google too)!
    Indeed, the analogy of the garage owner in relation to Councils and Council employees is bordering on being fatuous.
    Irrespective of the assistance you are attempting to afford, the fact remains that the questions I posed have not been answered.
    Although the post in question is ‘crystal clear’ to you, I find it less so. Perhaps that has something to do with my inferior cerebral capabilities. Mind you, it would be strange if were we all gifted, wouldn’t it?

    I’m not sure what patronising phrase I’m supposed to have used Benjamin and where the vitriol comes from. The Texas example is merely a reference to a US state which tries to minimise bureaucracy and which only meets occasionally to lay down parameters of government. Paid officials then do their job as they are supposed to. I don’t even know precisely the balance of politico vs bureaucrat in that state so if you have googled it, hopefully you might have reference to it.

    As to the personalising Benjamin. I only contribute where I have an interest and occasionally some knowledge. I am ignorant on a wide range of issues that people readily comment on. The skitty comments that you make when people disagree with you or state that they disagree with you aren’t really needed. Whilst I have done the same on occasion, I do recognise that it is not a good arguing trait and do regret it afterwards.

    #66908

    99DylanJones
    Participant

    One are of difference that is often overlooked is the Council Officers should be using all their professional skills in their judegement — Councilors often don have the professional knowledge of the officer — the problem then is that they make judgments based on their emotional perspective rather than the professional facts or toe a party political line that has been drawn up outside of the meeting and decided at their respective Group meetings.
    The results are therefore so predicable — Council Members 1 – Officers Nil
    with the general public not even on the playing field until the next election when they can certainly be the referee to decide who stays on the field of play (the Council), who is not selected for the team (those who have not performed) and who the new players will be (those who have done things for their community and want to champion their area).
    The problem is though the final selection of the First Team (Executive Board) is done behind closed doors when the real back scratching starts to make sure the inner sanctum of power is determined by Group Leaders who have the power to select and financially reward their first team players with a bonus even before they have done anything.
    Every ratepayer and resident of Wrexham is a shareholder of Wrexham County Borough Council- there’s no dividend this year again as I am having to pay more to be a Shareholder in a year through rates yet I know I will receive less benefit. If this happened with a Football Team what would happen- the manager would get the sack and under performing players relegated to the benches and a wage cut for not being in the First Team.
    Lets bring this type of sustem in and give the Shareholders (general public) a level of control

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