[Sam]

With the release of the 2011 census, are parts of Enoch's Rivers of Blood speech something to be shunned? Or are parts of it actually coming true ?

[thewayneinspain]

Originally Posted by Sam

With the release of the 2011 census, are parts of Enoch's Rivers of Blood speech something to be shunned? Or are parts of it actually coming true ?

What has the 'rivers of blood' speech got to do with the census? Perhaps you could quote the parts of the speech with the particular parts of census data that you think are connected?


The speech is typical british xenophobia...

[Sam]

In this country in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man.

Enoch Powell.

Regarding white British only being 48.9% of the population of London.

In 15 or 20 years, on present trends, there will be in this country three and a half million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. That is not my figure. That is the official figure given to parliament by the spokesman of the Registrar General's Office.

There is no comparable official figure for the year 2000, but it must be in the region of five to seven million, approximately one-tenth of the whole population, and approaching that of Greater London. Of course, it will not be evenly distributed from Margate to Aberystwyth and from Penzance to Aberdeen. Whole areas, towns and parts of towns across England will be occupied by sections of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population.

Regarding the parts of certain cities / towns in the UK today which are populated only by non white British.

It almost passes belief that at this moment 20 or 30 additional immigrant children are arriving from overseas in Wolverhampton alone every week - and that means 15 or 20 additional families a decade or two hence. Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancés whom they have never seen.

Let no one suppose that the flow of dependants will automatically tail off. On the contrary, even at the present admission rate of only 5,000 a year by voucher, there is sufficient for a further 25,000 dependants per annum ad infinitum, without taking into account the huge reservoir of existing relations in this country - and I am making no allowance at all for fraudulent entry. In these circumstances nothing will suffice but that the total inflow for settlement should be reduced at once to negligible proportions, and that the necessary legislative and administrative measures be taken without delay.

I stress the words "for settlement." This has nothing to do with the entry of Commonwealth citizens, any more than of aliens, into this country, for the purposes of study or of improving their qualifications, like (for instance) the Commonwealth doctors who, to the advantage of their own countries, have enabled our hospital service to be expanded faster than would otherwise have been possible. They are not, and never have been, immigrants.

Regarding the numerical aspects of change, although he was out in his predictions.......actually in 2011 it was 575,000 LEGAL immigrants.

Whatever drawbacks attended the immigrants arose not from the law or from public policy or from administration, but from those personal circumstances and accidents which cause, and always will cause, the fortunes and experience of one man to be different from another's.

But while, to the immigrant, entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different. For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. They now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by act of parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent-provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions.

Not applicable to census data, but very true of today's society.

The other dangerous delusion from which those who are wilfully or otherwise blind to realities suffer, is summed up in the word "integration." To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members.

Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible. There are among the Commonwealth immigrants who have come to live here in the last fifteen years or so, many thousands whose wish and purpose is to be integrated and whose every thought and endeavour is bent in that direction.

But to imagine that such a thing enters the heads of a great and growing majority of immigrants and their descendants is a ludicrous misconception, and a dangerous one.

We are on the verge here of a change. Hitherto it has been force of circumstance and of background which has rendered the very idea of integration inaccessible to the greater part of the immigrant population - that they never conceived or intended such a thing, and that their numbers and physical concentration meant the pressures towards integration which normally bear upon any small minority did not operate.

Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population. The cloud no bigger than a man's hand, that can so rapidly overcast the sky, has been visible recently in Wolverhampton and has shown signs of spreading quickly. The words I am about to use, verbatim as they appeared in the local press on 17 February, are not mine, but those of a Labour Member of Parliament who is a minister in the present government:

'The Sikh communities' campaign to maintain customs inappropriate in Britain is much to be regretted. Working in Britain, particularly in the public services, they should be prepared to accept the terms and conditions of their employment. To claim special communal rights (or should one say rites?) leads to a dangerous fragmentation within society. This communalism is a canker; whether practised by one colour or another it is to be strongly condemned.'

All credit to John Stonehouse for having had the insight to perceive that, and the courage to say it.

For these dangerous and divisive elements the legislation proposed in the Race Relations Bill is the very pabulum they need to flourish. Here is the means of showing that the immigrant communities can organise to consolidate their members, to agitate and campaign against their fellow citizens, and to overawe and dominate the rest with the legal weapons which the ignorant and the ill-informed have provided. As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."

Again, not really census related, but the key word being integration !

All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.

The final line of the speech, just what Britain has lost, the balls too say it as it is !

.......................Do you still think it's xenophobia ?

[zinger]

In no way am I a racist but I do believe that Enoch Powell was a very forward thinking man although he was vilified & portrayed to be one. People are afraid to say what they really feel in case they are made out to be the bad guy, not by other races but by British do gooders who cause more harm than good. There are good & bad everywhere but this country is too small to keep taking people in. Todays message saying that we need more people coming into the country to work to pay pensions, how many more will we need to pay for the next generation? Plus there is no work for people already here.

[thewayneinspain]

Quick answer as in the office, but will do an in depth later.

Enoch powell was not forward thinking he was prejudiced and couldn't see further forward than the front of his nose.

Who is going to pay for and look after the aging population, yet still obtain gdp growth, if the locals are producing enough kids?

for every very old chap or two, somebody needs to be their carer. That's one less wage out of the working population too..-. (which is what we are seeing in the ONS.)

No nation has had long term sustained growth without population growth... immigration is the only way for GB not to be in a continual recession.

GB has stacks of room and resources, especially if the GDP is going up. In the meantime people like me leave because we-re tired of the moaners and xenophobics who can-t embrace the future.

[zinger]

Sorry Wayne, I have no use for statistics as you can make them prove or disprove anything you want. My partner & I still work, I have 3 married children & all 6 work. I have 8 grandchildren who are not yet of working age but please God they will work too if there are any jobs left for them. I know quite a few very old chaps in their late 80's who are widowed but care for themselves. If they needed carers they would probably be keeping someone in a job caring for them. We are not alone in having families. There is not enough work for young people of this country now let alone taking in more. There are no lower paid jobs available for them to find a foothold in the workplace. Not everyone is university material. GB has not got the resources or room. Hospitals are overflowing, many staff are appalling with the aged, we are short of power source, we do not have enough water. Houses are being built on flood plains. People are having to downsize local authority if they have one bedroom too many, we have people sleeping on the streets. How can you say that we have room & resources when you deserted the UK to live in a much larger country where there is more sun.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by thewayneinspain

Quick answer as in the office, but will do an in depth later.

Enoch powell was not forward thinking he was prejudiced and couldn't see further forward than the front of his nose.

Who is going to pay for and look after the aging population, yet still obtain gdp growth, if the locals are producing enough kids?

for every very old chap or two, somebody needs to be their carer. That's one less wage out of the working population too..-. (which is what we are seeing in the ONS.)

No nation has had long term sustained growth without population growth... immigration is the only way for GB not to be in a continual recession.

GB has stacks of room and resources, especially if the GDP is going up. In the meantime people like me leave because we-re tired of the moaners and xenophobics who can-t embrace the future.

Enoch Powell couldn't see past the end of his nose. Well that made me chuckle as I seem to come across these people most days, Enoch isn't one person I'd paint with that brush.

Have you noticed that today's immigrants seem to bring their parents, the in-laws, the great grandparents for the ride. How does that effect your growth & GDP ? Also a large proportion of money earned in the UK by legal & illegal immigrants is sent back home to help the few remaining family members who's Uk visas haven't been sorted out yet out of poverty.

I agree with you regarding population growth linked to UK growth, but a population growth of ageing Lithuanian's doesn't really help us out here. It actually makes the situation worst.

GB has stacks of room and resources.....................I know what, we'll Give it all away eh Wayne !
Everything any serviceman ever thought for, we'll just hand it out to whoever would like a slice. Oh, that's already happening with the so called Euro-third world states bleeding us and Germany dry.

Britain isn't actually full of xenophobics, only in the land of rose tinted glasses, fluffy bunnies and candy floss clouds. We do have a few idiots, daydreamers, spineless morons, bigots, narrow minded do gooders. All of which we can do without. We need leaders with balls, to say it as it is, ditch the euro ball and chain. They'll need us before we need them. Still not xenophobic thou is it !

Re the in depth....................as zinger states, numbers twisted to suit an individuals requirements.

[thewayneinspain]

Have you noticed that today's immigrants seem to bring their parents, the in-laws, the great grandparents for the ride.

No i haven't seen this, having lived in manchester, bolton & london. I have never seen this.

How does that effect your growth & GDP ? Also a large proportion of money earned in the UK by legal & illegal immigrants is sent back home to help the few remaining family members who's Uk visas haven't been sorted out yet out of poverty.

In my experience, GB has by far the strictest border control in europe. Why would illegal immigrant come to GB and risk getting caught at the border, when they can stay in germany without a problem?

the census sayings nothing about an aging eastern european population only an aging british population.

I don't think you don't understand economics because the most important thing is how money is recycled with the economy which in turn means more money is taxed and pays for the governments resources.

Our serviceman fought against fascism which seems to be something you'd rather support judging by racist prejudiced comments.

so glad I'm in a country who sees and campaigns against what has caused their country's recession namely, the politicians and the banks not the hardworking immigrant population like myself.

[zinger]

Originally Posted by thewayneinspain

In my experience, GB has by far the strictest border control in europe. Why would illegal immigrant come to GB and risk getting caught at the border, when they can stay in germany without a problem?

Exactly, why do they come here? Some travel through many other countries to get here. I have no problem with anyone wishing to learn if they take their knowledge back to their own countries to make them better places to live. I do suspect though that our welfare benefits are a big draw for some, though not all. My beef is about unemployment here which is not helped by having more people living here who add nothing to the economy. There aren't jobs for our college & university leavers and through no fault of theirs, without work experience, may become long term unemployed once they start on the benefit culture.

[thewayneinspain]

Originally Posted by zinger

Exactly, why do they come here? Some travel through many other countries to get here. I have no problem with anyone wishing to learn if they take their knowledge back to their own countries to make them better places to live. I do suspect though that our welfare benefits are a big draw for some, though not all. My beef is about unemployment here which is not helped by having more people living here who add nothing to the economy. There aren't jobs for our college & university leavers and through no fault of theirs, without work experience, may become long term unemployed once they start on the benefit culture.

The british welfare benefits are nothing compared to the spanish (you get 80% of your last job's wage for 12 to 18 months) yet they have only half the immigrant population of GB (yet half an hour boat ride away from africa.) Most immigrants work in the UK, you only have to go into any kebab house, restaurant, hotel, cornrer shop,tax rank or hospital. The question is really where are the british?